Aoifinn Devitt: This series is kindly supported by GCM Grosvenor. GCM Grosvenor is a global alternative asset.
Jennifer Ryan: Management firm with a longstanding commitment to supporting small, emerging, and diverse investment managers.
Aoifinn Devitt: For over 30 years, the firm has developed expertise in funding and guiding these managers as part of its broader activity across alternative investments. With over $20 billion in AUM dedicated.
Jennifer Ryan: To small and emerging managers and $16 billion in AUM dedicated to diverse managers, GCM Grosvenor leverages its experienced team, broad network, and proprietary sourcing capabilities to support their success.
Aoifinn Devitt: Through the Small, Emerging, and Diverse Manager Program, the firm creates opportunities for investors to access a wide range of talent.
Jennifer Ryan: While seeking to drive strong returns and impact.
Aoifinn Devitt: For more information, visit www.gcmgrovenor.com.
Jennifer Ryan: Our next guest has built her career in the business development segment. And now has a role as Head of Distribution at a major global asset manager.
Aoifinn Devitt: Hear from her about the importance of.
Jennifer Ryan: Relationships, how clients’ needs are becoming more nuanced and evolving in different ways.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment and beyond by focusing on its people and their stories.
Jennifer Ryan: I’m joined today by Jennifer Ryan, Head of North American Distribution at Lazard Asset Management. She previously was Head of UK Institutional Sales at BlackRock and Head of the US Institutional Pensions at BlackRock and started her career at Goldman Sachs. Welcome, Jennifer. Thanks for joining me today.
Speaker C: Thank you.
Aoifinn Devitt: I thought that you could start by.
Jennifer Ryan: Tracing your background and how you came to enter the world of finance and investments.
Speaker C: Sure. I started my career— actually, funnily enough, I was a liberal arts major, went to Boston College undergrad, and went into consulting thinking I’d work for a couple of years and then go back to law school. And I found myself working with a client called Goldman Sachs. And working at Goldman Sachs enabled me to see the organization from the inside out, at which point I interviewed with the asset management business, which was pretty much in a reboot mode in, in the late ’90s, and took a role there in a very marketing-oriented role and then started working my way up from there. So I had various roles in sales in first the third-party space, working with banks in the, in Northeast, and then moved over to the institutional business in about 2008 after I finished my MBA. And from there, I then went to BlackRock for 6 years. I spent 3 years in New York, actually headed the middle market pensions group there and got their— worked to get their OCIO effort off the ground. Then I moved to London around the time of the pandemic and spent 3 years there, and then made my way back to the US and joined Lazard at the end of January 2023. So my background has been really just through experience and opportunity and actually having great mentors who introduced me to new channels of opportunity along the way. So I have to say, I credit a lot of people in my career to giving me those opportunities.
Jennifer Ryan: And of course, I invited you here because I’m always intrigued by the business development mindset and how that’s developed, that thick skin that you need, and the somewhat nuanced approach to developing clients. And looking back, maybe going back a little further, did you always have those instincts to network and develop relationships? Looking at your college and high school years?
Speaker C: Oh, sure. Well, I do think that I’ve often been a connector of people and I’ve often enjoyed that, but I ended up studying English literature and Spanish literature in my undergrad years, and I really enjoyed communication and writing, distilling messages. And I do feel that, you know, the combination of working to simplify a message and make it easily understood is sort of at the core of what you do in a sales and distribution role. And I also think that just having an ability and an interest in human nature and working to adapt with people as their needs change is sort of the essence of what we try to do as good people in distribution. Understanding your client and adapting with their needs is critical to what we do. So I’ve always enjoyed that. And I do think that in the role of being on the front lines, your job is to really distill down messaging, make it easily understood, tailor it to your audience, understand what they care about. And then let them guide you in terms of where they want to take the relationship. So that’s always been interesting to me, and my experience and my network has also been informed by those experiences. So I consider a real blessing that I’ve had the opportunity to work both in the US and in London.
Jennifer Ryan: Well, as someone who’s just come back from an extended trip to South America, studying Spanish literature sounds extremely appealing to me right now. Have you ever used your languages? And I think just getting back to our previous point, of course, learning languages does help with identifying differences, but also commonalities between different people. Did you ever use your language in your role?
Speaker C: I do. I mean, as a teenager, I did a year abroad in Spain. I lived in Spain and studied there and learned the language, lived with a family. And that was a really formative experience for me. I, of course, have the opportunity to use Spanish in New York and in the US because it’s, it’s everywhere. And I think it just, you know, the experience of living in another country really helps you understand nuances and makes you a little bit more observant of human nature because there’s not just one right way to approach things. So that’s been really one of the, you know, many formative events in my life. But speaking another language certainly gives you that extra perspective and it has helped me.
Jennifer Ryan: And moving on to business development as a craft, what would you say were some of your core beliefs when it comes to working with clients and developing new clients?
Speaker C: I mean, key to this, I think, and one of the things that I did when I first came to Lazard is really making sure that you understand the ecosystem of your client. So we organized ourselves according to client types so that you understand the unique problems that an endowment faces versus a corporate pension versus a public pension. And you can really speak to their needs and their risk tolerance as well as getting to know the people in that world and how they think and operate. So first of all, I think the core beliefs that I have in terms of covering clients is do your homework. Know not only the client and what they care about, but know the ecosystem in which they operate and the world in which they, you know, what they care about in terms of investment opportunities, but also governance, the limitations that they face. I think increasingly we see clients that are forced to have fewer relationships because they’re being asked to do more with less. They need more partnership type of experience. And the way you become that partner is truly by understanding what their unique needs are and truly educating yourself so you can speak at their level. So it’s truly understanding the client that makes a person more useful to an allocator because they don’t have to explain everything to you.
Jennifer Ryan: And that was my next question about how client needs are evolving, because when we think about this resource constraint that you mentioned, this might be a common theme. We often see then clients looking to outsource their investment functions, And that then can become another relationship that you have to start from scratch with that outsourcer or OCIO. How would you say clients’ needs are differing today?
Speaker C: I mean, I think there’s a big consolidation happening. So you see a lot of firms that have just fewer resources going the outsourcing route. But those who continue to have a staff, have a CIO, they’re really rethinking their decision-making. They’re reconsidering capital allocation because of some of the things we’re seeing in the world. The market is evolving. We’re in a new rate regime. You’re seeing geopolitics changing the way people allocate. And you’re also seeing a huge shift in terms of the regime of private markets. We’re seeing fewer distributions. It causes people to reconsider what they’re doing throughout their portfolio. So I do see clients’ needs evolving in a very big way. And on top of that, actually, we’re seeing a bit of a generational shift in CIOs, particularly in North America. You’re definitely seeing more more new CIOs starting. And with that, you see someone taking a fresh look at a portfolio. So it’s a great opportunity to kind of reconsider the asset allocation of any portfolio. So with that in mind, you have to be conversant. It’s really important to be conversant in terms of the things that really matter to clients. And they’re very, very different according to different channels.
Jennifer Ryan: And do you see clients having more appetite now for more esoteric types of investments?
Aoifinn Devitt: Thinking about where we are in the.
Jennifer Ryan: Interest rate regime, is there more clustering around traditional investments or more appetite for different ones?
Speaker C: I tend to look at portfolios as what is the problem you’re looking to solve. So if you see inflation really creeping up, that’s a main consideration. Real assets have taken hold. Infrastructure is incredibly important in portfolios in a way that it hasn’t been 10 years ago. You think about public markets where we tend to operate at Lazard and where you you see, know, obviously the pressure from the standpoint of an active manager, you’re seeing passive exposure as an option, you’re seeing private markets. And that means that, you know, if you’re really gonna be effective in the active management world of equities in particular, you have to operate in areas that are less efficient so that you can make a case for active management. And there certainly is a case to be made, but we see opportunities in the world we sit in as, where we see less efficient markets and an ability to add alpha from an active perspective. Whether or not that’s a niche strategy or something that may have seen maybe part of a core portfolio, but sees maybe less of an allocation because of inefficiencies or the strength of the US equity market, things like EM and international, we’re starting to see an uptick in appetite for that. And certainly thematic.
Aoifinn Devitt: And on the one hand, cycles are faster, certainly certain market cycles, information digestion cycles. And then on the other hand, cycles are longer and slower. We talked private equity and slower pace of distributions. So where would you say this decision-making relationship building cycle is? And just say for somebody entering a business development role today, fresh out of university, no network, because of the hybrid working, because of this resource constraint that you mentioned, do you think we need to reset expectations about how long that relationship building process takes? Or do you think it’s just always been hard? And it always will be hard, you just have to knuckle down.
Speaker C: I think it is hard. I really do believe that you have to pay attention to all the nodes of the decision-making from the CIO to the staff to the trustees. The next-gen opportunities for people in sort of an entry-level position to interact with people at their level at the client is also incredibly important. So yes, it is hard, but if you take a team-based approach to covering clients, meaning there’s a lead person who works with the CIO and the senior investment staff, working with a junior person to get to know that next generation, and the consultant relations people are communicating as well to the field consultants who cover those clients, you can have a really robust process of building a relationship. And the more coordinated you are, the more effective you’re going to be. But I think the challenge sometimes is that people, for whatever reason, maybe it’s human nature, feel like it’s easier or better to go alone. And I really believe strongly that the more coordinated organizations tend to do better and develop deeper relationships.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s really interesting as a segue to kind of the mindset of somebody in your role. And obviously not all mindsets are alike, but I would imagine there are some mindsets that are the opposite to that. They’re not team-based, they’re sole player, sole champion, protective of information. That’s almost a stereotype. What would you say? I mean, just looking at You obviously believe in the team-based approach. In terms of— I always think of the mindset of somebody who succeeds in your role. Do you think that’s something you learn or you’re born with? Are you born or made? And how do you develop that thick skin? Because there will be inevitably rejection and setbacks along that journey.
Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s probably taking the first question, is it— are you born or made that way? I think it’s personality. And I do think it’s sort of how, in many ways, I mean, if you want to think about it, it’s like, how are you raised? Were you raised to be somebody who is sort of like eat what you kill and out for yourself, or were you always kind of encouraged to work as a team? I mean, honestly, I think team sports are great, and that’s one of the things that you learn and one of the things I encourage my kids to do. But I think that those things are— you can evolve, you can learn how to do those things. I think when you see proof points and you see it work successfully, you can really be sold on that concept. But until you— if you’re somebody who tends to want to do things on their own, it’s going to be hard. But when you see it in action, you kind of really know how powerful that can be and how it can shorten things. Because of course, information and feedback really shape success in terms of a salesperson’s career. The more information you have, the more adept you can be at changing and targeting exactly the needs that your clients have put before you. But one person can only do that so well. So I think that it’s incentive structures that also make for a better or worse team environment. But I think you have to select people who kind of have that tendency and you can kind of see it demonstrated in the way they interact socially too.
Aoifinn Devitt: And then bringing that to then the diversity question that I often ask on this podcast around our industry, its diversity, and the importance of that, because it seems like if you’re trying to build relationships at different levels, you know, you’re going to be facing clients with very diverse characters and perhaps backgrounds, et cetera. So you should probably as much as possible try to slot into that. How do you think our industry is doing? Are we attracting the right diversity of candidates?
Speaker C: I think we can always do better. I would say we’re squarely in the B category in terms of how diverse the business is. It’s still not as diverse as I’d like it to be. I think we’ve made some strides, and clearly you see with women in senior positions and diverse people in senior positions, that always helps because they bring people along with them. But I do think that organizations have to strive to be disciplined in their hiring. They have to strive to be disciplined not only after they bring in diverse candidates to make sure that they’re successful once they are in an organization. We tend to lose a lot of people at the VP level, and that may not even be a function of diversity. It may be a function of lack of career guidance or career planning, but it’s more likely to happen if you’ve got someone who is diverse and doesn’t see anyone that looks like them in front of them.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’d love to pick up as we move to the reflection section, that point about career guidance, because the last time I met someone who had that in their job title, I was in high school. So I really don’t think that the career guidance function— it may be called an executive coach later, but it’s a little bit thin, I would say, in terms of its availability to us. And there’s an onus on the candidate, maybe, or the employee to seek it out. How well do you think we do? And did you have anyone that guided you?
Speaker C: I did. I mean, I, I also had the ambition. First starts with the individual. You’ve got to drive your own career 100%, and you’ll find that people are more willing to help you if you demonstrate a hunger to advance and to be thoughtful about where you take your career. No one’s going to take you by the hand and tell you where to go. You’ve got to have that ambition yourself. But I did have people who recognized in me that I was interested in advancing my career, learning more. And they were people that— they did not sit in a title of career guidance counselor. They were people that I respected who had senior roles in distribution, and I worked alongside them. I went to meetings with them. I got their feedback. I got criticism from them. I got encouragement from them. And then various bosses along the way. My boss at Goldman sponsored me for an executive MBA at Columbia. People like that who actually get behind you because they know that you’re going to put in the time to be successful, I think, is really the winning recipe. And I’ve had a lot of people in my career like that who’ve been supportive of me and have encouraged me to take chances. I mean, I think the other thing is that sometimes you got to take some risks. And when you have a support network around you that you believe in and that you, you respect because of their own success, those people become your board of directors when you make big decisions. So I have repeatedly called on people, former bosses and peers of mine, many women that I know, that I consult with when I make big decisions.
Aoifinn Devitt: And it’s interesting because that kind of develops, I suppose, organically. I find I get asked the question a lot from, say, junior employees, like, how do you develop and how do you gain mentors, or how do you gain sponsors? And unfortunately, it’s not really a question of asking. It’s almost a more nuanced process of evolution. Is that how it worked for you?
Speaker C: I think so, yeah. I mean, I think it’s like-minded people who have a natural connection socially or for whatever reason. It’s got to be very organic. I never really— I mean, I like mentor programs because they facilitate engagement, but I think the best mentors and sponsors— we could talk about the difference between a mentor and sponsor— are the ones that actually recognize that they see a little bit of themselves in the mentee. And they really want to foster that. And the person who is looking up to the mentor says, yeah, I want to be like that person. I recognize that they’re good at what they do. I respect them. They’ve got integrity, all those things. But those are very personal connections. And the ones that endure are friendships, I would say. So there’s got to be something more than like, are you good at your job?
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s interesting because as you get older, of course, though, there are fewer people ahead of you. That when you get into your 40s and 50s, there may not be that many people who can see themselves in you because they’ve already retired. So I suppose there’s— whereas it’s an interesting— that it becomes, I suppose, fewer and fewer potential. But hopefully you’ve developed a network by then.
Speaker C: Yeah, that’s right. A peer group is very important, people that you know and trust. And I mean, I think that’s critical. And I would say to anyone starting their career, invest in your network and your friendships and make sure that you give back to other people in ways that help them as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: So looking back at your career then, would you say there were any setbacks or challenges? Because that’s often one of the key areas where mentors and sponsors can help, is in encouraging that resilience or maybe showing a path that they perhaps navigated through a similar setback. Was there anything in your career that led to some lessons learned?
Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, so when I joined Goldman, I was not part of the analyst program. I was a more of a lateral hire, so there was no fixed path for me. So I was sort of going it alone as opposed to having a 2-year program and then being accelerated to the next level. So that was just understanding that I had to chart my own course. That was one thing. Making the decision early on to go more of a client route when I could have chosen portfolio management or client-facing job was really a question of what am I good at? What am I really enjoying? There’s sometimes what you think you’re— that you want to do because it seems good on paper versus what you’re very good at. They’re two different things. So, the more you start to realize that you should lean into the skills that naturally come to you, then I think that’s important. Being a woman in the finance industry, I just felt very important— it was very important to me personally to have a graduate degree. I wanted to get an MBA, and I didn’t want to leave the workforce. So, I wanted those credentials primarily because I had been a liberal arts major and I wanted to have the formal training in terms of finance and accounting and all those things. So setbacks, I don’t know, maybe I perceived it as a setback, but it was very important to me to go back to grad school.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a really interesting observation there. And I think we’ve spoken about some of the key people who influenced you along the way. And just bringing it back to our original discussion around partnership and the collaboration that’s now part of how we work with clients, would you say that the starting out working with clients at a low point for them in terms of their portfolios, their strategies, was a time to build trust and maybe elongate your time horizon because you knew nothing was gonna happen in the near term?
Speaker C: Yes, definitely. And there are ways to build that trust by giving people greater transparency on geopolitics or what you think about the elections or intellectual content and not even talking about product, but really just trying to help people be informed. And it’s every salesperson’s goal to be that first call when people have a thorny issue that they’re trying to figure out. That’s, our goal always, but when the markets aren’t moving and people are sort of scratching their heads or just frustrated because they’re under pressure, they want to see what you’re seeing. So, if you’re proactive in reaching out to people and telling them, could this be helpful to you? Do you want to hear what we’re talking about? I think that’s how you build trust. And also just being honest about where you are as an organization and not trying to sugarcoat things because oftentimes, The worst criticism that you can get as a salesperson is like when you’re disingenuous. And so you’ve gotta know your facts, you’ve gotta be honest with people, and you’ve gotta be really listening to what they’re telling you and not trying to just kind of sugarcoat everything.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s interesting because exactly that, I mean, clearly at a downtime, a client is going to be enshrouded in a certain amount of worry. And if they say credit investors come to mind, you expect them to constantly worry. So if a client is asking their asset manager, what are you worried about? And the answer is nothing. I think there’s a cognitive dissonance that develops from that because this is just, well, then you’re not seeing the same reality I am. So it gets back to the honesty. And I always sort of say, look, as an allocator, I say, look, you’re in the room because we know you have all these credentials. I don’t need to hear you selling yourself to me again. I do want to hear what I don’t know. I do want to hear what’s out there that I should be worried about and maybe that you’re seeing. So it’s about that kind of honesty because intellectual honesty, I think especially in the down times.
Speaker C: Exactly. Like, talking your own book is incredibly, I think, offensive to people. They can see right through it.
Aoifinn Devitt: So they can, and we can. My last question then is just about any words of wisdom. So a long career working with some great mentors, by the sounds of things, as well as having a fairly hungry attitude from the beginning. Any words of wisdom, creed, or motto, or advice for your younger self that you can leave us with?
Speaker C: Sure. I guess I would say, first of all, be excellent at your job, but keep your eyes and ears open and be willing to take risks because the marginal day in the same job when you’ve mastered everything is great. But if somebody gives you an opportunity to take on some new challenge, you should try to be open to it. And I would say, again, I come back to the network. I’ve learned so much through talking to my friends in the industry and how they think through their next steps and challenges. That’s been really important to me, and it’s something I value personally because I get strength from talking to people that I respect. So I would just say invest in that. Don’t sit in your office and keep your head down and hope that things are going to work out because it doesn’t happen that way. That happens in school. In your career, it’s a little bit of— it’s skill, it’s luck, it’s relationships.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much, Jen. Since we got to know each other, I’ve seen you as a serious and very committed servant of the institutions that you work with. And I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you more here in this discussion. So thank you so much for coming here and sharing your insights with us.
Speaker C: Thank you so much. It’s been my pleasure.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
Aoifinn Devitt: This series is kindly supported by GCM Grosvenor. GCM Grosvenor is a global alternative asset.
Jennifer Ryan: Management firm with a longstanding commitment to supporting small, emerging, and diverse investment managers.
Aoifinn Devitt: For over 30 years, the firm has developed expertise in funding and guiding these managers as part of its broader activity across alternative investments. With over $20 billion in AUM dedicated.
Jennifer Ryan: To small and emerging managers and $16 billion in AUM dedicated to diverse managers, GCM Grosvenor leverages its experienced team, broad network, and proprietary sourcing capabilities to support their success.
Aoifinn Devitt: Through the Small, Emerging, and Diverse Manager Program, the firm creates opportunities for investors to access a wide range of talent.
Jennifer Ryan: While seeking to drive strong returns and impact.
Aoifinn Devitt: For more information, visit www.gcmgrovenor.com.
Jennifer Ryan: Our next guest has built her career in the business development segment. And now has a role as Head of Distribution at a major global asset manager.
Aoifinn Devitt: Hear from her about the importance of.
Jennifer Ryan: Relationships, how clients’ needs are becoming more nuanced and evolving in different ways.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt, and welcome to the 50 Faces podcast, a podcast committed to revealing the richness and diversity of the world of investment and beyond by focusing on its people and their stories.
Jennifer Ryan: I’m joined today by Jennifer Ryan, Head of North American Distribution at Lazard Asset Management. She previously was Head of UK Institutional Sales at BlackRock and Head of the US Institutional Pensions at BlackRock and started her career at Goldman Sachs. Welcome, Jennifer. Thanks for joining me today.
Speaker C: Thank you.
Aoifinn Devitt: I thought that you could start by.
Jennifer Ryan: Tracing your background and how you came to enter the world of finance and investments.
Speaker C: Sure. I started my career— actually, funnily enough, I was a liberal arts major, went to Boston College undergrad, and went into consulting thinking I’d work for a couple of years and then go back to law school. And I found myself working with a client called Goldman Sachs. And working at Goldman Sachs enabled me to see the organization from the inside out, at which point I interviewed with the asset management business, which was pretty much in a reboot mode in, in the late ’90s, and took a role there in a very marketing-oriented role and then started working my way up from there. So I had various roles in sales in first the third-party space, working with banks in the, in Northeast, and then moved over to the institutional business in about 2008 after I finished my MBA. And from there, I then went to BlackRock for 6 years. I spent 3 years in New York, actually headed the middle market pensions group there and got their— worked to get their OCIO effort off the ground. Then I moved to London around the time of the pandemic and spent 3 years there, and then made my way back to the US and joined Lazard at the end of January 2023. So my background has been really just through experience and opportunity and actually having great mentors who introduced me to new channels of opportunity along the way. So I have to say, I credit a lot of people in my career to giving me those opportunities.
Jennifer Ryan: And of course, I invited you here because I’m always intrigued by the business development mindset and how that’s developed, that thick skin that you need, and the somewhat nuanced approach to developing clients. And looking back, maybe going back a little further, did you always have those instincts to network and develop relationships? Looking at your college and high school years?
Speaker C: Oh, sure. Well, I do think that I’ve often been a connector of people and I’ve often enjoyed that, but I ended up studying English literature and Spanish literature in my undergrad years, and I really enjoyed communication and writing, distilling messages. And I do feel that, you know, the combination of working to simplify a message and make it easily understood is sort of at the core of what you do in a sales and distribution role. And I also think that just having an ability and an interest in human nature and working to adapt with people as their needs change is sort of the essence of what we try to do as good people in distribution. Understanding your client and adapting with their needs is critical to what we do. So I’ve always enjoyed that. And I do think that in the role of being on the front lines, your job is to really distill down messaging, make it easily understood, tailor it to your audience, understand what they care about. And then let them guide you in terms of where they want to take the relationship. So that’s always been interesting to me, and my experience and my network has also been informed by those experiences. So I consider a real blessing that I’ve had the opportunity to work both in the US and in London.
Jennifer Ryan: Well, as someone who’s just come back from an extended trip to South America, studying Spanish literature sounds extremely appealing to me right now. Have you ever used your languages? And I think just getting back to our previous point, of course, learning languages does help with identifying differences, but also commonalities between different people. Did you ever use your language in your role?
Speaker C: I do. I mean, as a teenager, I did a year abroad in Spain. I lived in Spain and studied there and learned the language, lived with a family. And that was a really formative experience for me. I, of course, have the opportunity to use Spanish in New York and in the US because it’s, it’s everywhere. And I think it just, you know, the experience of living in another country really helps you understand nuances and makes you a little bit more observant of human nature because there’s not just one right way to approach things. So that’s been really one of the, you know, many formative events in my life. But speaking another language certainly gives you that extra perspective and it has helped me.
Jennifer Ryan: And moving on to business development as a craft, what would you say were some of your core beliefs when it comes to working with clients and developing new clients?
Speaker C: I mean, key to this, I think, and one of the things that I did when I first came to Lazard is really making sure that you understand the ecosystem of your client. So we organized ourselves according to client types so that you understand the unique problems that an endowment faces versus a corporate pension versus a public pension. And you can really speak to their needs and their risk tolerance as well as getting to know the people in that world and how they think and operate. So first of all, I think the core beliefs that I have in terms of covering clients is do your homework. Know not only the client and what they care about, but know the ecosystem in which they operate and the world in which they, you know, what they care about in terms of investment opportunities, but also governance, the limitations that they face. I think increasingly we see clients that are forced to have fewer relationships because they’re being asked to do more with less. They need more partnership type of experience. And the way you become that partner is truly by understanding what their unique needs are and truly educating yourself so you can speak at their level. So it’s truly understanding the client that makes a person more useful to an allocator because they don’t have to explain everything to you.
Jennifer Ryan: And that was my next question about how client needs are evolving, because when we think about this resource constraint that you mentioned, this might be a common theme. We often see then clients looking to outsource their investment functions, And that then can become another relationship that you have to start from scratch with that outsourcer or OCIO. How would you say clients’ needs are differing today?
Speaker C: I mean, I think there’s a big consolidation happening. So you see a lot of firms that have just fewer resources going the outsourcing route. But those who continue to have a staff, have a CIO, they’re really rethinking their decision-making. They’re reconsidering capital allocation because of some of the things we’re seeing in the world. The market is evolving. We’re in a new rate regime. You’re seeing geopolitics changing the way people allocate. And you’re also seeing a huge shift in terms of the regime of private markets. We’re seeing fewer distributions. It causes people to reconsider what they’re doing throughout their portfolio. So I do see clients’ needs evolving in a very big way. And on top of that, actually, we’re seeing a bit of a generational shift in CIOs, particularly in North America. You’re definitely seeing more more new CIOs starting. And with that, you see someone taking a fresh look at a portfolio. So it’s a great opportunity to kind of reconsider the asset allocation of any portfolio. So with that in mind, you have to be conversant. It’s really important to be conversant in terms of the things that really matter to clients. And they’re very, very different according to different channels.
Jennifer Ryan: And do you see clients having more appetite now for more esoteric types of investments?
Aoifinn Devitt: Thinking about where we are in the.
Jennifer Ryan: Interest rate regime, is there more clustering around traditional investments or more appetite for different ones?
Speaker C: I tend to look at portfolios as what is the problem you’re looking to solve. So if you see inflation really creeping up, that’s a main consideration. Real assets have taken hold. Infrastructure is incredibly important in portfolios in a way that it hasn’t been 10 years ago. You think about public markets where we tend to operate at Lazard and where you you see, know, obviously the pressure from the standpoint of an active manager, you’re seeing passive exposure as an option, you’re seeing private markets. And that means that, you know, if you’re really gonna be effective in the active management world of equities in particular, you have to operate in areas that are less efficient so that you can make a case for active management. And there certainly is a case to be made, but we see opportunities in the world we sit in as, where we see less efficient markets and an ability to add alpha from an active perspective. Whether or not that’s a niche strategy or something that may have seen maybe part of a core portfolio, but sees maybe less of an allocation because of inefficiencies or the strength of the US equity market, things like EM and international, we’re starting to see an uptick in appetite for that. And certainly thematic.
Aoifinn Devitt: And on the one hand, cycles are faster, certainly certain market cycles, information digestion cycles. And then on the other hand, cycles are longer and slower. We talked private equity and slower pace of distributions. So where would you say this decision-making relationship building cycle is? And just say for somebody entering a business development role today, fresh out of university, no network, because of the hybrid working, because of this resource constraint that you mentioned, do you think we need to reset expectations about how long that relationship building process takes? Or do you think it’s just always been hard? And it always will be hard, you just have to knuckle down.
Speaker C: I think it is hard. I really do believe that you have to pay attention to all the nodes of the decision-making from the CIO to the staff to the trustees. The next-gen opportunities for people in sort of an entry-level position to interact with people at their level at the client is also incredibly important. So yes, it is hard, but if you take a team-based approach to covering clients, meaning there’s a lead person who works with the CIO and the senior investment staff, working with a junior person to get to know that next generation, and the consultant relations people are communicating as well to the field consultants who cover those clients, you can have a really robust process of building a relationship. And the more coordinated you are, the more effective you’re going to be. But I think the challenge sometimes is that people, for whatever reason, maybe it’s human nature, feel like it’s easier or better to go alone. And I really believe strongly that the more coordinated organizations tend to do better and develop deeper relationships.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s really interesting as a segue to kind of the mindset of somebody in your role. And obviously not all mindsets are alike, but I would imagine there are some mindsets that are the opposite to that. They’re not team-based, they’re sole player, sole champion, protective of information. That’s almost a stereotype. What would you say? I mean, just looking at You obviously believe in the team-based approach. In terms of— I always think of the mindset of somebody who succeeds in your role. Do you think that’s something you learn or you’re born with? Are you born or made? And how do you develop that thick skin? Because there will be inevitably rejection and setbacks along that journey.
Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s probably taking the first question, is it— are you born or made that way? I think it’s personality. And I do think it’s sort of how, in many ways, I mean, if you want to think about it, it’s like, how are you raised? Were you raised to be somebody who is sort of like eat what you kill and out for yourself, or were you always kind of encouraged to work as a team? I mean, honestly, I think team sports are great, and that’s one of the things that you learn and one of the things I encourage my kids to do. But I think that those things are— you can evolve, you can learn how to do those things. I think when you see proof points and you see it work successfully, you can really be sold on that concept. But until you— if you’re somebody who tends to want to do things on their own, it’s going to be hard. But when you see it in action, you kind of really know how powerful that can be and how it can shorten things. Because of course, information and feedback really shape success in terms of a salesperson’s career. The more information you have, the more adept you can be at changing and targeting exactly the needs that your clients have put before you. But one person can only do that so well. So I think that it’s incentive structures that also make for a better or worse team environment. But I think you have to select people who kind of have that tendency and you can kind of see it demonstrated in the way they interact socially too.
Aoifinn Devitt: And then bringing that to then the diversity question that I often ask on this podcast around our industry, its diversity, and the importance of that, because it seems like if you’re trying to build relationships at different levels, you know, you’re going to be facing clients with very diverse characters and perhaps backgrounds, et cetera. So you should probably as much as possible try to slot into that. How do you think our industry is doing? Are we attracting the right diversity of candidates?
Speaker C: I think we can always do better. I would say we’re squarely in the B category in terms of how diverse the business is. It’s still not as diverse as I’d like it to be. I think we’ve made some strides, and clearly you see with women in senior positions and diverse people in senior positions, that always helps because they bring people along with them. But I do think that organizations have to strive to be disciplined in their hiring. They have to strive to be disciplined not only after they bring in diverse candidates to make sure that they’re successful once they are in an organization. We tend to lose a lot of people at the VP level, and that may not even be a function of diversity. It may be a function of lack of career guidance or career planning, but it’s more likely to happen if you’ve got someone who is diverse and doesn’t see anyone that looks like them in front of them.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’d love to pick up as we move to the reflection section, that point about career guidance, because the last time I met someone who had that in their job title, I was in high school. So I really don’t think that the career guidance function— it may be called an executive coach later, but it’s a little bit thin, I would say, in terms of its availability to us. And there’s an onus on the candidate, maybe, or the employee to seek it out. How well do you think we do? And did you have anyone that guided you?
Speaker C: I did. I mean, I, I also had the ambition. First starts with the individual. You’ve got to drive your own career 100%, and you’ll find that people are more willing to help you if you demonstrate a hunger to advance and to be thoughtful about where you take your career. No one’s going to take you by the hand and tell you where to go. You’ve got to have that ambition yourself. But I did have people who recognized in me that I was interested in advancing my career, learning more. And they were people that— they did not sit in a title of career guidance counselor. They were people that I respected who had senior roles in distribution, and I worked alongside them. I went to meetings with them. I got their feedback. I got criticism from them. I got encouragement from them. And then various bosses along the way. My boss at Goldman sponsored me for an executive MBA at Columbia. People like that who actually get behind you because they know that you’re going to put in the time to be successful, I think, is really the winning recipe. And I’ve had a lot of people in my career like that who’ve been supportive of me and have encouraged me to take chances. I mean, I think the other thing is that sometimes you got to take some risks. And when you have a support network around you that you believe in and that you, you respect because of their own success, those people become your board of directors when you make big decisions. So I have repeatedly called on people, former bosses and peers of mine, many women that I know, that I consult with when I make big decisions.
Aoifinn Devitt: And it’s interesting because that kind of develops, I suppose, organically. I find I get asked the question a lot from, say, junior employees, like, how do you develop and how do you gain mentors, or how do you gain sponsors? And unfortunately, it’s not really a question of asking. It’s almost a more nuanced process of evolution. Is that how it worked for you?
Speaker C: I think so, yeah. I mean, I think it’s like-minded people who have a natural connection socially or for whatever reason. It’s got to be very organic. I never really— I mean, I like mentor programs because they facilitate engagement, but I think the best mentors and sponsors— we could talk about the difference between a mentor and sponsor— are the ones that actually recognize that they see a little bit of themselves in the mentee. And they really want to foster that. And the person who is looking up to the mentor says, yeah, I want to be like that person. I recognize that they’re good at what they do. I respect them. They’ve got integrity, all those things. But those are very personal connections. And the ones that endure are friendships, I would say. So there’s got to be something more than like, are you good at your job?
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s interesting because as you get older, of course, though, there are fewer people ahead of you. That when you get into your 40s and 50s, there may not be that many people who can see themselves in you because they’ve already retired. So I suppose there’s— whereas it’s an interesting— that it becomes, I suppose, fewer and fewer potential. But hopefully you’ve developed a network by then.
Speaker C: Yeah, that’s right. A peer group is very important, people that you know and trust. And I mean, I think that’s critical. And I would say to anyone starting their career, invest in your network and your friendships and make sure that you give back to other people in ways that help them as well.
Aoifinn Devitt: So looking back at your career then, would you say there were any setbacks or challenges? Because that’s often one of the key areas where mentors and sponsors can help, is in encouraging that resilience or maybe showing a path that they perhaps navigated through a similar setback. Was there anything in your career that led to some lessons learned?
Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, so when I joined Goldman, I was not part of the analyst program. I was a more of a lateral hire, so there was no fixed path for me. So I was sort of going it alone as opposed to having a 2-year program and then being accelerated to the next level. So that was just understanding that I had to chart my own course. That was one thing. Making the decision early on to go more of a client route when I could have chosen portfolio management or client-facing job was really a question of what am I good at? What am I really enjoying? There’s sometimes what you think you’re— that you want to do because it seems good on paper versus what you’re very good at. They’re two different things. So, the more you start to realize that you should lean into the skills that naturally come to you, then I think that’s important. Being a woman in the finance industry, I just felt very important— it was very important to me personally to have a graduate degree. I wanted to get an MBA, and I didn’t want to leave the workforce. So, I wanted those credentials primarily because I had been a liberal arts major and I wanted to have the formal training in terms of finance and accounting and all those things. So setbacks, I don’t know, maybe I perceived it as a setback, but it was very important to me to go back to grad school.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s a really interesting observation there. And I think we’ve spoken about some of the key people who influenced you along the way. And just bringing it back to our original discussion around partnership and the collaboration that’s now part of how we work with clients, would you say that the starting out working with clients at a low point for them in terms of their portfolios, their strategies, was a time to build trust and maybe elongate your time horizon because you knew nothing was gonna happen in the near term?
Speaker C: Yes, definitely. And there are ways to build that trust by giving people greater transparency on geopolitics or what you think about the elections or intellectual content and not even talking about product, but really just trying to help people be informed. And it’s every salesperson’s goal to be that first call when people have a thorny issue that they’re trying to figure out. That’s, our goal always, but when the markets aren’t moving and people are sort of scratching their heads or just frustrated because they’re under pressure, they want to see what you’re seeing. So, if you’re proactive in reaching out to people and telling them, could this be helpful to you? Do you want to hear what we’re talking about? I think that’s how you build trust. And also just being honest about where you are as an organization and not trying to sugarcoat things because oftentimes, The worst criticism that you can get as a salesperson is like when you’re disingenuous. And so you’ve gotta know your facts, you’ve gotta be honest with people, and you’ve gotta be really listening to what they’re telling you and not trying to just kind of sugarcoat everything.
Aoifinn Devitt: It’s interesting because exactly that, I mean, clearly at a downtime, a client is going to be enshrouded in a certain amount of worry. And if they say credit investors come to mind, you expect them to constantly worry. So if a client is asking their asset manager, what are you worried about? And the answer is nothing. I think there’s a cognitive dissonance that develops from that because this is just, well, then you’re not seeing the same reality I am. So it gets back to the honesty. And I always sort of say, look, as an allocator, I say, look, you’re in the room because we know you have all these credentials. I don’t need to hear you selling yourself to me again. I do want to hear what I don’t know. I do want to hear what’s out there that I should be worried about and maybe that you’re seeing. So it’s about that kind of honesty because intellectual honesty, I think especially in the down times.
Speaker C: Exactly. Like, talking your own book is incredibly, I think, offensive to people. They can see right through it.
Aoifinn Devitt: So they can, and we can. My last question then is just about any words of wisdom. So a long career working with some great mentors, by the sounds of things, as well as having a fairly hungry attitude from the beginning. Any words of wisdom, creed, or motto, or advice for your younger self that you can leave us with?
Speaker C: Sure. I guess I would say, first of all, be excellent at your job, but keep your eyes and ears open and be willing to take risks because the marginal day in the same job when you’ve mastered everything is great. But if somebody gives you an opportunity to take on some new challenge, you should try to be open to it. And I would say, again, I come back to the network. I’ve learned so much through talking to my friends in the industry and how they think through their next steps and challenges. That’s been really important to me, and it’s something I value personally because I get strength from talking to people that I respect. So I would just say invest in that. Don’t sit in your office and keep your head down and hope that things are going to work out because it doesn’t happen that way. That happens in school. In your career, it’s a little bit of— it’s skill, it’s luck, it’s relationships.
Aoifinn Devitt: Well, thank you so much, Jen. Since we got to know each other, I’ve seen you as a serious and very committed servant of the institutions that you work with. And I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you more here in this discussion. So thank you so much for coming here and sharing your insights with us.
Speaker C: Thank you so much. It’s been my pleasure.
Aoifinn Devitt: I’m Aoifinn Devitt. Thank you for listening to the 50 Faces Podcast. If you liked what you heard and would like to tune in to hear more inspiring investors and their personal journeys, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as investment advice, and all views are personal and should not be attributed to the organizations and affiliations of the host or any guest.
